Doing good business with Skye Cusack

[⚠️ Trigger Warning – This episode has content that may be confrontational for some]

This episode is a big one! I speak with fellow marketer Skye Cusack from BluSkye Marketing about lots of topics.

We speak about:
– Copywriting
– Business ethics
– Business for good
– Self doubt
– Mental health
– Being an indigenous owned business
and more

Tune in 🎧

Connect with me

Website: www.newschoolofmarketing.com
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Instagram: @bianca_mckenzie

 

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Transcript

Bianca: Welcome to the new School of Marketing podcast. I’m Bianca McKenzie and today I’m talking about doing good business with Skye Cusack. Skye is an indigenous Australian copywriter, author and marketer. She founded Blue sky Marketing in February 2023 with a passion for accessible marketing.

She has been described as the love child of creative and analytical thinking. Welcome to the podcast Sky. I’m so excited to have you here.

Skye: Thank you.

Bianca: This is cool. Actually, before we like, start all the other questions, because I was just reading your bio. Author.

Skye: What?

Oh, yes.

If you go on, don’t do it though. But if you look me up on Google, you will find a novel that I wrote when I was 16 and I’m not proud of it.

It’s like for a 16 year old, I guess it was okay, but there was very basic things that I did wrong. For instance, halfway through the novel there’s a character called June, and halfway through, her name changes to July.

And just no one noticed that.

You know, it’s very funny, but I’m actually in the process of. I’ve written my manuscript for my second book and I’m in process at the moment of talking to some potential publishers and things.

So. Yeah, that is like. That’s like, I guess. Wow, I’m revealing my big secret. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I’m hoping to be published kind of early next year.

Bianca: Oh, that’s exciting. Awesome. That is so cool.

So that being said, that you’ve written a book and you’re writing another one, you’re obviously good at writing and I know you’re a copywriter.

Why did you start your business in copywriting? Especially with the rise of AI? Like, talk me through it.

Skye: Okay, so I think I’m actually going to start this off quite strong with a controversial opinion.

I don’t see AI copywriting tools as competitors and I never have. So the reason that I started Blue Sky Marketing is because I worked in corporate marketing for like over 10 years and I saw how often businesses were already investing in agencies and freelancers.

So, you know, I guess if you ask why did I start it, it’s because I was ready to be my own boss and I knew that there’d be work. I never actually had a doubt of that in my mind.

Um, and the reason for that is, you know, AI tools like ChatGPT and others, they have a totally different demographic to copywriters. So people who use AI are most likely doing it for two reasons.

Either they don’t have the resources, like the time or the money, or two, they don’t understand, like, the value of investing in humans.

Because the truth is, if you are using AI and then all your competitors are using AI, then everyone in your space sounds exactly the same. And so your brand voice isn’t unique, and therefore you don’t stand out.

But I’ve been really lucky, I guess, that I work with people that have that big commitment to, you know, investing in human beings and understanding the value and the benefit of sitting down with someone and getting a completely unique strategy that’s like the most effective thing for your unique brand and business.

So I’ve never been too concerned about AI because it’s just too different. Like, I’m not competing because we have different ideal customers, I guess.

Bianca: Yes. I love that. I really do. And you know what, there’s actually businesses that are not allowed to use AI like my husband’s, they do a lot of work with the defense Force and things like that.

And they have to sign specific documents that they will not be using artificial intelligence.

Skye: So that is so interesting.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah. And I totally agree. Like, there is. There is no competition. Look, I do use it, I play with it, but half of the time it’s like. It’s like, thank you, ChatGPT.

I don’t like that. I’m gonna write my own.

Skye: Yeah, I use it as kind of like a sounding board. So I don’t really ever use it for, like, specific copy. But I will go in there and be like, hey, I’m creating a social media content calendar.

You know, what do you think of this idea? And then, like, Chat GPT will come back to me and be like, oh, maybe you could do this or this. And it’s kind of just like, I guess, because you would know, like, when you are running your own thing and you’re sitting alone in your office and there’s like, no one to talk to, and you’re like, oh, like, it’s very different to my experience of working corporate.

So it’s just kind of like a mate to, like, have a chat with. And then I go off and do the work myself. So I know that it’s not plagiarized.

Does that make sense?

Bianca: Yeah. 100. No, I totally.

Skye: That I use AI, but, yeah, no.

Bianca: I think everyone does, to be honest. And you can. You can use it to make your life easier. Like, sometimes I’m like, oh, got this idea. And then, yeah, pop it in there and go, you know, give me some more ideas or give me, like, 10 headlines for something.

And then like, I look at all the headlines and go, no, I’m gonna still make my own.

Skye: But, like, yeah, it’s good, I think.

Bianca: I totally agree with you. I totally.

Skye: Yeah, it’s good for, like, those first few steps when you’re, like, ideating, and then when you get to actually wanting to finalize Poppy to, you know, put out in front of your market, I think that’s maybe when it’s time to get human beings that understand the strategy.

Bianca: Yes. I 100% agree. And also, you’ve mentioned it before, brand tone. And if you are a personal brand, I like, I. It’s so important to have that brand tone.

Skye: Right.

Bianca: And not sound like a robot.

Skye: Yeah, I think you can. Well, I can tell. I don’t know if that’s just because I’m a copywriter, but I think consumers are getting to the point where they can tell when something’s been written by ChatGPT.

Or maybe that’s just me because I’m so in the space, but I feel like you can tell when it’s genuine and when it’s not.

Bianca: I think a little bit of both because the robots are getting smarter as well.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: So it’s like, oh, yeah. And sometimes now, sometimes I’m actually scared to use something that’s done by chat GPT or like, a certain word, because it’s like, oh, my God, are they going to think that I’m a robot?

Skye: Yeah, there’s a lot of. There’s a lot of thought that goes into it.

I guess that’s why people hire people like me because, like, it’s our job to think about all of those things. And you’re totally right. Consumers are getting smarter, but also AI is getting smarter.

I’m really interested to see where it goes, to be honest.

Bianca: Yeah, I.

I’m still a little bit, like, reluctant. I started using the copy ones like ChatGPT, but I haven’t played with, like, artificial, like, intelligence for images and stuff. I’m like, I just.

I don’t know. It’s just going one step too far for me. There’s people that do amazing things with it, but I’m like, yeah, I don’t know. Anyway.

Skye: Yeah. And I guess I’m always worried about, like, plagiarism. Especially with imagery.

Yeah, that’s always my concern is, like, I definitely don’t like for.

Yeah, for copy, I totally get why people would want to just use ChatGPT, but when it comes to AI imagery, like, I’ve never used it, and I’ve always just, you know, invested in people.

Bianca: Yes. And, you know, working with people is actually really nice. So.

Skye: Yeah, I mean, maybe we’re biased, but I prefer it.

Bianca: Same. Gets a bit. Still gets a bit lonely with a robot.

Skye: That’s true. That’s so true.

Bianca: All right. From a copywriting perspective, I’m always. I’m always, always interested to hear more about copywriting. I have a few friends who are copywriters as well, and it’s like one of those things that I.

Even though I’ve done some courses, it’s like. Oh, it’s. I don’t know. It’s like a whole different language to me. So talk us through what you think is good copywriting.

Like, what’s best practice in copywriting.

Skye: So I feel like. Oh, not to quote mean girls, but I feel like, you know, like, I’m not a regular copywriter. I’m a cool copywriter, just because I’m pretty sure, like, I could summarize this in one sentence.

I will elaborate, but, you know, in one sentence, I would just say that good copywriting is copywriting that converts. Like, it’s kind of. Like, it’s not that simple, but it is kind of that simple.

Does that make sense? So, you know, anything that works is good, but the likelihood of your copy converting does kind of increase drastically if you have, like, a solid communications and brand strategy.

So, you know, generally you want to have correct spelling and grammar, a consistent brand voice, and, you know, like a call to action, like a cta.

And of course, like, these build trust with your audience, and they also give them the information they need to know how to get involved with your brand in the way that you want them to.

So with Call to Action, specifically, you want to take a lot of care in, you know, really thinking about how do you want consumers to interact with your brand. Like, if you’re on socials, do you want them to like or follow?

If it’s a poster, do you want them to scan the QR code? If it’s a website, do you want them to buy tickets or book a call? Like, it’s really important to be really clear and really consistent.

I think that’s what is. Yeah, that’s good copy to me. It’s just clear and consistent.

Bianca: I love That I really do love that. And I like that you said cta, because a lot of people kind of forget and then wonder why people are.

Skye: Not taking and why they’re like, why are we doing anything? And that. That’s the thing is I don’t think people realize how many decisions we make in a day. Like, the second we get up, we’re like, what am I going to have for breakfast?

What am I going to wear? Do I want to use, you know, this mascara or my other mascara or, you know, like, there’s so many decisions, like, before you’ve even left the house to go to work, your brain is, like, just fried.

Bianca: Yes.

Skye: And there’s a lot of care that, you know, we take as copywriters or as marketers to make it as easy as possible. Like consumers. I mean, because, like, we’re professionals, but we’re also consumers.

Right? Like, we. We pay for products and services just like everybody else. And I just want things to be as easy as possible. And there is a lot of data to show that if a consumer doesn’t know, like, or doesn’t feel directed enough to know how to, you know, make the conversion that you want, they just click away because they don’t understand what they’re meant to do.

And their brain is, like, so fried from, like, deciding what they’re going to have for dinner. Ton.

Bianca: You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I often say, just tell me what to do. I don’t need to know all the other things. Just tell me what to do.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: And you got to make it easy. You, like, just make it easy. Don’t make me scroll 100% too many things unless I need to. Like, there’s different people. Some people need to know more, some people need to know less.

But you need to cater for all of those people.

Skye: Yeah. And that’s where the communication strategy comes in. Like, I think before you even talk about what is the copy going to look like, what’s the call to action going to be?

Like, there’s weeks and weeks of, you know, market research and strategizing that goes into. So it’s, you know, what the best action is for, like, the target demo or demographic, I should say.

Bianca: I love that you just said that because I don’t know if you find this, but you get people to come to you, and they want XYZ and they want it next week.

And, like, yeah, don’t get me wrong. I am the most impatient person as well.

But they don’t always understand that. It takes research. It takes.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: Longer than a few seconds.

Skye: It does. And that’s why I don’t feel like I’m competing with AI, because the people that want that, they’ll just go to ChatGPT.

Like, it’s very rare, I think, for someone that wants that to then agree to book with a professional because they want something and they want it quickly. And, you know, I’m not going to judge anyone for that.

Like, maybe there’s a little bit of bias because I’m a copywriter, but, like, if that is the way that you want to do it, there, there are options for that.

But if you do want that really, like, clean, effective strategy, it does take more of that time. And.

Bianca: Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree with that. I’m just wondering if some of the, the tools that we have now are making us more impatient, or maybe not even making us more impatient.

If it’s just taking away from understanding how Rome wasn’t building a day, basically. You know, what did I say? It takes so many hours to take a, to make a Rolls Royce or some.

And like so many hours to make a Toyota. Like it’s like, longer.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: To get like something solid. I’m just wondering if sometimes people don’t understand the process and don’t understand the value of something and that’s why they don’t choose something. That’s. This is obviously going a whole different direction and it comes probably down to copywriting, like.

Yeah, communicating the value.

Skye: Well, I actually can talk about this. So Blue Sky Marketing, my agency, we’ve actually made a commitment to two UN Sustainable Development goals, and they are reduced inequalities and quality education.

So that’s a commitment that we’ve made to make sure we’re doing ethical marketing in a structured way, is we do provide that quality education. Like, I’m more than happy to sit down with someone and it’s not for a sales reason, really.

It’s not like, oh, I’m going to tell you all this stuff and then you have to book with me. It’s just like an understanding of this is what goes into it.

This is what you can expect. This is the value.

And yeah, and that is a commitment we’ve made because I feel like to truly be ethical, you need to provide knowledge and then, you know, clients can feel empowered to make informed decisions about who they’re working with.

Bianca: Oh, I love this. So let’s talk about that a little bit more. I know that you focus on ethical marketing, so let’s dive into a little bit more, a little bit further.

So I like the whole empowered decisions and. Yeah, yeah, let’s talk about this.

Skye: Yeah, so I posted something about this on our socials the other day actually about the importance of consent when working with professionals. And this doesn’t just go for marketing, this goes for everything.

Obviously, like your doctor should be asking consent from you, you know, probably like if you get McDonald’s they should probably ask for, you know what I mean? But I, yes, can only talk about it in like a marketing sense.

So my passion for ethical marketing actually started many, many years ago.

I was working corporate and I was pretty green at the time. I was like a little marketing baby and I was working full time. It was like one of my first big girl marketing jobs.

And I was looking through the meta. It wasn’t called Meta at the time, but it is now. So that’s how I’m going to refer to it. I was looking through the meta analog, the meta analytics say that 10 times fast that an agency had sent through to my employer at the time and something just seem right.

So I went to investigate myself and I saw that the numbers I’d exported myself from Meta were completely different. So the agency had written, you know, much different, much higher numbers in the report to kind of manipulate the perceived return on investment.

And that really opened my eyes because at that point it hadn’t even occurred to me that people could do that. Like you can just lie to a client because they don’t understand.

Like most of the time, especially because we work with kind of small business owners that are kind of early on in their business life cycle. Yeah, you know, you could say something got 10,000 clicks when it only got like 10.

And they probably wouldn’t know because, yeah, like it’s, yeah, like you can lie. And I, that had never occurred to me.

Bianca: And so it doesn’t to me either, to be honest. I’ve been doing this for a while.

Skye: So I, it was, that was a big eye opener for me. But ethics are hard because everybody has different ethics. And I don’t think, you can’t really say, and I wouldn’t, that ethics are objectively right or wrong.

Like you can have your own moral code and I can have mine. And I was, I would never say like someone was wrong, but that’s why we structured our commitment to the two UN Sustainable Development Goals just so we knew within ourselves this is what our version of ethical marketing is.

Yeah, this is just how we like to work. We agreed on them as a team. So the team I work with now have basically been here since the start, because I started as a freelancer and then kind of transformed, transitioned into an agency.

And so, yeah, I got a lot of the team on way before it was even public that we were an agency. And we decided these together. Like, this is how we best feel that we can commit to ethical marketing.

And, yeah, I do think that there is a power imbalance when a client comes to you because they’re coming to you because they don’t know what they’re doing.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: Like, clearly they wouldn’t hire us if they knew what to do.

And so I think it’s important to use our powers for good and not evil, I guess, is what I’m trying to say.

Bianca: Yep. No, I am just sitting. I’m still a little bit, like, gobsmacked by what you were saying, because I. Yeah, you know, obviously, meta is my wheelhouse. Facebook ads, and I would just never even consider.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: Tweaking the numbers.

I. I’m the kind of person who will, like, open it up, go through it with you on, like, a zoom call, sharing the screen, going, this is what I’m looking at.

This is what it means.

Yeah. Like. Like you said, it’s about educating people.

I don’t like to keep people in the dark. I will, like, I’ll share as much as you want me to share, obviously. Like, I know a lot of my clients, they’re like, nah, I, like, don’t really need to know certain things and just need to.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: Conversions and things like that. But, like, to me, that is just, like, being a good person. I don’t know. Like, I wouldn’t.

Skye: I totally agree.

Bianca: I wouldn’t even think about.

Skye: Wouldn’t even think of it.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: And so maybe I’m just, like, jaded because I. That was, like, one of my first experiences in corporate marketing. So maybe I’m just, like, jaded from all of it. But, like, without, you know, going into extraneous detail, I’ve.

I’ve seen there’s a bunch of ways that if you wanted to make a lot of money as a marketer, there’s a bunch of things that you could do that I’ve seen because I’ve worked for corporate businesses that I’ve had to be like, hey, I know what this agency or this freelancer is doing, and it’s not full.

We shouldn’t work with them anymore.

There’s all sorts of things you can do that I am very committed to not doing.

Bianca: I’m so glad, though, to hear that you have learned, like, you’ve literally seen it and Gone. No, I’m not doing that. I’m gonna do something different. Like, I haven’t really seen all the shady text.

Well, I’ve kind of tuned them out. I have to say. I know it happens. People come to me who have been to other agencies, and they have. Then, yeah, like, they got, like.

They would say we didn’t get any results, but they also didn’t get any education.

So, yeah, I’m like, okay, well, there’s. Yeah, like, we go through it all and things like that, but there’s so much in the online world where people make things look shiny.

I. I regularly post that I don’t take screenshots of Facebook ads accounts anymore because it doesn’t tell the full story. It is not transparent. Like, I can easily, like, filter out the columns that are not looking so good.

Like, you know, I might have, like, 10 different campaigns running, and two might be doing well. I’m like, oh, I’m just selecting those two, and I’m showing, you know, this amazing return on ad spend.

And there’s, like, these other eight campaigns that might be not making that much money or maybe, like, losing money. I just. Yeah, there’s a whole lot of things. And you do learn after a while that what you show online is not necessarily.

Or what you see online is not necessarily the truth. So I love that you’ve made a commitment to actually sit down with people and talk them through it, so.

Skye: Well, it sounds like you’re doing that as well, though. Maybe I’m just doing it more like, I think maybe we. We put a lot of planning and effort into it, but it sounds like you’re just doing that kind of, like, organically and authentically.

Bianca: I just. Me.

Skye: Yeah, I don’t want that. Like, we do have a whole ethical marketing strategy, but I’m sure there are lots of people that do market ethically just like. And they don’t even realize that’s just because that’s how they are, that’s who they are.

Bianca: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Skye: I’m not out here to be like, I’m the most ethical marketer. I’m just out here to say if people don’t have, you know, a solid understanding of what that can look like, and they do want to kind of put a bit more and, like, really put it on paper and commit to it.

That’s what we’ve done. But, yeah, I’m sure there are lots of people that market ethically just. Yeah.

Bianca: Oh, yeah. Without having the ethical kind of. Like, it’s not like everyone else Is unethical.

Skye: Yeah. Only me. I’m the only good marketer.

Bianca: No, absolutely not. There are a lot of unethical marketers out there. And, like, I do know that.

Skye: I don’t know, people sometimes are like.

Bianca: Oh, you’re a bit too woke.

Skye: And it’s like, well, I’d rather be too woke than asleep.

Bianca: I don’t know.

Skye: That was a weird way to phrase that, but you know what I mean.

Bianca: No.

Skye: And so I would always. It’s interesting that we’re. I think we work with, like, consumers at different life stages because I. I want the people that are, like, why target. I should say the people that are, like, right at the start, they don’t know anything.

And I want to go in and, like, give them the education and teach them all this stuff. And then so they have that knowledge when they work with someone in the future.

And then it sounds like you want to work with people that already kind of have that established. So that’s really interesting. We’re at different stages in the life cycle.

Bianca: It is different. Yeah, it is. I do work with people who are, like, brand new as well, but more in the. In the teaching. I’m kind of of the opinion that anyone brand new, especially very new to business, shouldn’t invest in Facebook ads.

That’s probably controversial opinion as well, but.

Skye: No.

Bianca: Yeah. I can only amplify what is already working. So if you’re at the beginning stages, you’re often.

Yeah. Still testing all of that and things like that. So that’s. It’s kind of like a necessity of being a Facebook ads manager that you work with someone who is already established.

So. Yeah, I love that education of.

Yeah. Helping people make informed decisions. And I guess that’s what. Copywriting, I guess, is a really big part of that. Just to explain.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: All the pieces and all the parts to them. And that’s. I work with a lot of sales pages, and that’s what a lot of sales pages do.

Yeah. Explaining, you know, the whys and the what’s. So I love that. Yeah. Are there any like, particular sort of, like, industries or niches that you like working with?

Skye: So we at the. You know, I said before that whole team was involved in the process. Like when we kind of like, articulated our own brand for Blue Sky Marketing as an agency.

We had a big talk about it because I’ve got a background in finance marketing, which I love, but everyone in the team was like, please don’t make me do finance marketing.

And I was like, okay, that’s fair. I’ll give you something more interesting. You know, I’ve got other people on the team that specialize in like video game marketing. And I was like, that’s cool, but I don’t really know much about it.

And so we kind of. We didn’t want to go for an industry. We were like, we want a niche, obviously. But so we decided to go with, you know, the ethics and the values.

So we say that our niche are brands that are in business to do good.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: So naturally we work with a lot of not for profits, community initiatives, artists, festivals, that kind of thing. Because it is less about the industry for me. And I mean like, I probably wouldn’t work with like the tobacco industry.

I am a smoker, but I don’t want to promote that to other people. And maybe like gambling as well. I just, I don’t know if I could. I actually got a really good opportunity last year that was for something to do with gambling and I just had to turn it down.

I was like, I’m sorry, I can’t. My little heart, I can’t.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: I have to really believe in something. And in the past I have actually ended contracts with clients if I feel like they’re in business for different reasons than me. And that’s no shade to anyone that does business differently.

It’s just, you know, if we’re speaking different languages and we have different goals, then we’re probably not the right agency for them anyway. So it’s for everyone’s benefit that they can find someone new who is aligned with their approach to business.

Us.

Bianca: Yeah. I love that. I really do love that. Sometimes it’s just good to say no because, yeah, it’s not the right fit.

Skye: Yeah. And it’s. It is for them as well as for us. But I can’t help people that don’t align with like, yeah, I’m just not qualified. You know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah, I know. I totally 100 agree with that. Like if I. Yeah, there’s probably plenty of industries. I can’t think of any right now that or like types of businesses that I’m like, no, sorry, can’t help you.

Just doesn’t feel right. Like, I don’t know.

I love it. Oh, so many things to unfold. Also on your.

I think it’s in your Instagram bio you put in there that you’re an indigenous, indigenous owned business. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Skye: So, yes, I am First Nations. I’m from the Dogborough Unity mob, which are in Queensland near the Atherton Tablelands.

And it’s really special to me. So being like a First nations copywriter and agency owner, there’s a really strong feeling of a legacy while I’m working. Like, I’m always so aware that I couldn’t do what I do without the 60,000 plus years of storytelling from first nations peoples that came before me.

So it’s really important for me to kind of honor my ancestry and provide opportunities as well for other first nations peoples through my work. So a lot of my biggest client at the moment is a First nations organization.

I mean, I say people on my team are first nations, but they’re also my relatives. So that’s not as impressive as it sounds.

And you know, I’ve had a lot of people say, so that’s kind of like for my self, it’s about legacy and it’s about respect and acknowledgement of culture and ancestry.

But in terms of like, if I want to talk about it like that, in terms of like in the market, I’ve had a lot of people, people say that the reason that they want to work with me or with Blue sky is because there’s such a lack of first nations professionals.

So I guess it is a little bit strategic, like not in like a, not in an unethical way. I can’t say all of this stuff and then be like, yeah, I’m going around just shouting my heritage from the rooftops to make money.

It’s not like that. It’s just, it’s nice to know that there are becoming more spaces for first nations people and kind of reducing that stigma that, you know, if you’re first nations or indigenous, like, you can’t be a professional and you’re just like on the dole.

You know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: It’s nice that that narrative starting to change and I’m really proud to be a big part of that or to hopefully become a big part of that.

Bianca: I think you’re already making some ripples.

Skye: Thank you. I’ll take it.

Bianca: You know, ripples, they turn into waves. No, I think it’s good. And the other thing is, it’s education. Like again, you don’t know this unless you put it somewhere front and center.

There might be other, you know, indigenous owned businesses, but people are not putting it on their website. Then how do you know? And then how do you make an informed choice?

So I think it’s again, part of ethical marketing is just helping people make an informed choice.

Skye: Yeah. Understanding the importance of heritage. I totally agree.

Bianca: I know there will be a lot of organizations who Want to do business with indigenous owned businesses and if you don’t put it on your website, no one will know and I should.

Skye: I actually, I wasn’t going to talk about this, but I will. I’ve decided, I’ve made an executive decision. I was actually really badly bullied for being indigenous for like most of my childhood.

Like I got really bullied at school and I, for a long time I did that thing, you know, like I straightened my hair, I bleached it blonde, you know, like I’m, I have the privilege of being look more of like a light skinned indigenous person.

So for a long time, like I hated that my hair was curly, I hated how big my nose was. Like, you don’t understand when I was a teenager how many times I’d be on my phone Googling like nose jobs, Tasmania, you know, like I had such a shame around it.

And then I kind of got to, I don’t know, I guess it was like a few years ago where I was like, I’m allowed to be Aboriginal. Like I don’t know, like that sounds weird, but yeah, I got to this point where I was like, I experienced racism and I’m rejecting that narrative.

And yeah, now, you know, I wear my hair curly all the time. I got my nose pierced specifically. So it would be like the first thing that people look at when they see me.

Like.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: And I’m kind of. Yeah, it is kind of healing, I guess to really kind of empower myself. I don’t tell that story to a lot of people, but I was feeling like this was an okay space to say that.

Bianca: I’m glad that you kind of turned that around. And I don’t know, I am someone who is always interested in cultures. Like I’ve always been interested in cultures and I don’t know, like, obviously I cannot tell you how to feel and things like that, but I would be proud if I was Aboriginal.

Like as. Yeah. If I was a First nations person. Like the incredible history. The incredible.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: I don’t know, I feel like us white people, you know, I’m gonna just lump everyone together. Us white people kind of, we’ve forgotten, we have lost touch with our ancestors. Our ancestors.

Like the stories. There is this, there is none of that.

Maybe that’s why I’m so interested in it because I feel like we kind of almost lost certain connection.

Connection to the land, connection to other people, you know? Yeah. So I soak up other cultures, like stories and anything that’s like part of their culture. I just soak it Up.

Like. Like a sponge. Like a dry sponge.

Skye: Like a dry sponge.

That is so interesting. Thank you for sharing that, because I think that’s something as well. I don’t know what it’s like to not be a person of color, so that’s really interesting, and it makes complete sense.

Bianca: Yeah. I don’t know. I think it’s just parts of. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Two sides of the coin. It’s like. Yeah. I obviously grew up in white privilege, And I totally, 100% acknowledge that.

And I have no idea what it is like to be a person of color, but I do see from my perspective that. I don’t know, I feel like we’re almost missing the point.

Like, we’re almost missing something as, like.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: A white generation. Just. We don’t have any of that connection to, like, such a strong connection to land, to. I don’t know. I think it’s different. I. I don’t know, because obviously I.

I am a white person, and yes, I love the land, I love, like, the country. But, like, I. There’s not that. That chord that connects us. I don’t know. That’s how I kind of see it.

Like, you.

Like, in terms of Aboriginal people, I see them as, like, being so connected, and I’m, like, almost jealous.

Skye: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s okay to be jealous because I’ve never thought about that. I personally, I didn’t. I used to reject that, like I said, when I was younger out of, like, shame.

But now I feel very connected to country. And what I’m hearing when. What I’m thinking when you’re saying this is, like, how nice would it be if we could lift each other up?

You know, not you and I. I mean, like, generally, like the country. How nice if we could lift each other up? And there could be that sense of, like, ethics and quality education and empowerment and consent.

All these things we’ve talked about so far, like, on, like, a national scale.

Bianca: Oh, my God, that’d be amazing.

Skye: Yeah. Like, I think that it’s every, you know, nationality or ethnicity or identity will have their own privileges and their own, you know, disadvantages. And I think there’s probably, for a lot of people, we all feel jealous of each other.

You know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: We could come together and be a group, and then we wouldn’t have to feel jealous of anyone because we’d all have enough.

Bianca: Yeah. Just acceptance of who we are. That’d be. That’d be nice, wouldn’t it?

Skye: But that’d be nice, wouldn’t It.

Bianca: That’s so good. I am, yeah. I really love the, that you actually putting it front and center now. You did open up a little bit. So. And I know that you have said that you’re open to talk about this.

So. Yes, I don’t really know how to segue into it but we have talked a little bit about mental health before and you know, other parts of business and things that often are not spoken about.

So I think while we’re on this, while we’re on this opening up, I think it might be a good way into it.

So. Yeah. Are you happy or are you open to sharing some of your mental health story?

Skye: Oh, yes, for sure. I love it. I love talking about this.

I feel like other people in the team are going to listen to this and be like sky. But I, you know, I think, I love that we’re moving more as a society.

I’m making a lot of social commentary today.

I love that we’re moving towards this place of being open about mental health. But I feel like we haven’t quite reached the point where maybe you like people like you and I are at.

Because I feel like we’re still, I said this to you before that we’re still on, you know, like, oh, if you go for a 10 minute walk every day and if you meditate and if you write in a journal then.

But like, yeah, if I share my mental health journey and this is relevant to business for me and I think it is part of ethical business because I am very conscious of ethics, not just for clients but also for the team.

And pretty much everyone on the team, including all of our contractors, are neurodivergent or, you know, struggle with some sort of like physical or mental barrier that, you know, Blue sky works really hard and commits to being, you know, accessible for.

So that’s kind of why this might seem like a random thing to talk about. But for me it’s so intertwined because we all work to pay our bills and we don’t just get to knot.

Have mental and physical barriers to overcome every day. You know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: And so I, yeah, I’m going to talk about. I guess I should put a trigger warning. I might talk about mental health in a way that’s like not standard.

I’m just putting trigger warning for everyone out there. But yeah, for sure. So I have, I’ve had OCD since I was like born. I remember when I was a kid and it’s really, it’s bad ocd.

Like, well, not that there’s ever Good ocd, but very severe, I should say. Like, I have very severe ocd. And when I was a kid, everyone thought I had Tourette’s.

And I remember going to the doctor because I would just do or say these random things and like, a lot of people thought I had Tourette’s, but looking back, I actually had ocd.

And I don’t know if you know much about ocd.

Bianca: Not a hell lot.

Skye: Yeah, no, that’s okay. I don’t want to explain things to you that you already know, but yeah, I think there’s kind of this under or this kind of belief that, like, oh, you’re just really clean.

And the fact of the matter is, I’m like the messiest person I know. Like, it’s actually horrendous. Like, if you could see the room that I’m in right now, like, there’s clothes all over the floor.

Like, it’s not about being cleanly. And it really does affect my work. So, for instance, like, oh, you know, I’ve called you a few times just randomly and then be like, oh, sorry that I called you.

And that’s like, actually like an OCD thing. Like, I just feel this need to, like, obsessively call people. And so I have to really check myself because, like, if I annoy people by calling them, they won’t want to work with me.

You know what I mean? And so there’s just kind of like weird things like that and as well, like, energy levels. I think the energy is something that maybe a lot of neuro or divergent people don’t talk about is, you know, if you have like, ADHD or OCD or other ones that I don’t know much about, so I probably shouldn’t comment on them.

It’s like, energy is so hard for me to run a business. Like, it’s really, really difficult for me to. Like, there are some days, like, yeah, I can’t even, like, honestly, some days I’m working from my bed on my ph because, like, I can’t even go to my laptop because I’m just so exhausted.

And I just think people don’t talk about that, you know? Like, people will say, like, I’m having a mental health day, but it’s like, I feel like there should be a bigger conversation around, especially when you own your own business, how hard it is to kind of have that work life balance.

I don’t know. Is any of this resonating? I know it is.

Bianca: Am I. Yeah.

Skye: Communicating things the way that I’m thinking them.

Bianca: My Brain is going, yep, yep, yep. And I’m looking at it from two ways. I’m like, okay, well, when I was working for someone else, there’s two ways that you can have a mental health day.

There’s one, you can take a day off and then you absolutely do not think about work because it’s like not your problem kind of thing because, you know, it’s not your business.

And the other one was that you were at work but you were not, not fully there, if that makes sense.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: And I’m pretty sure that a lot of people get through the day like that. I don’t know. I was never, I was always up and down and I don’t have a diagnosis, but I have a very strong suspicion that I do have adhd.

But on the other side, it’s like when you work for yourself, yes, it’s great because you can sort of manage your own time. You can manage your own, like planning your own, your own days.

But I do that and I get one of those days and it’s like I’ve got a full schedule and zero energy.

Skye: Yeah. And you know, I mean, I don’t know about you, but for me, like, I don’t get sick leave.

Bianca: Like, no, no, I don’t.

Skye: I don’t get to just like clock in or clock out and just message someone and be like, okay, can you cover my shift today and then know that my bills are going to be paid next week?

Like, we don’t have that option.

Bianca: Not at all. So you have to either shift everything that’s in your calendar and work it out another way or you just got to just go and sit and do it, which makes everything take 10 times longer.

Trust me, I’m there regularly.

The other thing is that I now have built in buffers in my week because, yeah, I need those buffers in case I have one of those days where I literally just have zero energy and don’t really want to or I don’t know, we spoke about this a little bit before as well.

And I don’t know if it’s part of being neurodivergent or just part of being a business owner or just part of being a woman is I regularly have self doubt.

I regularly have, you know, little pity parties.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: Not sure where it comes from, but yeah, but when you are in business, I do think that mental health is a different ball game.

I think that when you work for someone else, you can, like you said, take a day off. Someone else who can cover your shift and you can still make money.

I do still also think that it is hidden a lot in the workforce and you kind of just have to just suck it up and deal with it, which I don’t think is the right way to go about it either.

I don’t know. There’s, like, no answer, is there? Like, it’s. When you’re in your own business, you can’t necessarily stop. You don’t. This is the thing with me. I. I think about things all the time.

There is no switching off. It’s not like, 5:00 and, like, you know, I leave my desk and I don’t think about it anymore. I do. I go back to my desk regularly.

I’m like, oh, I need to do this. Oh, I forgot to do blah.

It’s just so hard.

Skye: Yeah, I totally agree. I’m always working. Like, I literally posted on my Instagram story at like, two in the morning being, like, writing a blog for a client. And that was true.

Like, that’s how it works. And I think. Oh, there was something that you said that really resonated with me. Oh, yeah. About, like, that lack of, like, that feeling of, like, doubt.

And I think it does come down to probably a lot of things, but especially being a woman. Like, I nearly didn’t start my side hustle because I was like, oh, my gosh, everyone’s going to judge me.

Everyone’s going to laugh at me. Like, you know, as I said, I was bullied for a lot of my life and I was like, oh, my gosh, people are going to bully me again.

And, like, it was really hard for me to come out and be like, hey, I have value. Because how can you expect others to value you if you’re not valuing yourself?

Bianca: Yeah, that’s good.

Skye: Like, if I’m sitting there going, like, oh, my goodness, I am not good enough. I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, then why have you ask these people to pay you this money?

Like, yeah, it’s really. It’s really hard to find that balance between.

Yeah, like, believing in yourself enough to book the client, but then continuing to believe in yourself enough to actually do the work that they’ve booked you for.

Bianca: Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. And you know what? I’ve been doing this, like, for a long time, and I. It doesn’t go away. Sorry. Yeah, okay.

Skye: I’m glad.

Bianca: I’m glad you told me up front.

Skye: I’m prepared.

Bianca: It keeps coming back, and it keeps coming back, and it’s like a forever sort of mental game. Like, it’s almost that you, You. You say yes, and you’re like, yep, I can do this.

This is so exciting. Like, I’m really super excited about this project. And you get going, you’re like, oh, my God, maybe I should have not. Maybe I should just go on the concept and get a job and blah, blah, blah.

Skye: Literally. Yeah, I’ll just go corporate again. Yeah.

Bianca: And then you get rolling and then you get results. You’re like, oh, I can really do this. This is like. Like, yeah, this is my thing. Like, I’m really good. So you get evidence that you can do it and you do it again.

And like, it’s like, yeah, literally, that happens over and over.

But it is one of those.

Yeah, one of those things. And we. I don’t know, I think with mental health, sometimes we think about that. Things go really, really, really wrong. But, like, it doesn’t have to be.

Like, you just have to have, like, one or two days, and then it. It is. It is mental health.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: And it. It doesn’t get easier. And I don’t know, like, I feel like, one, there’s still a stigma.

Two, there’s a lot of misunderstanding. I think a lot of people just do not understand that mental health is different for everyone.

And some people are really, in a way, debilitated by it.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: I don’t get to that point, but I do recognize it because my mother had to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital ward when I was younger. So I do know, and I do see and acknowledge that.

It’s just, I think when you’re not in it, you can’t always.

Yeah. Recognize it and empathize with it. Because is, like, that’s why I think a lot of people just don’t understand it, and that’s maybe why there is this stigma.

Skye: Yeah, I agree, and I’ll say it openly. I have also been admitted to a psychiatric facility before when I was 17. And. Yeah. Like, I don’t know. Like, I guess I thought I’d feel a lot of shame telling you that, but, like, that’s just a fact.

Like, there’s nothing inherently positive or negative about that. Like, that’s just a fact. You know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: A lot of these things, I think it’s just a fact of if you have a diagnosis or if you’re experiencing a symptom or if you can get results for a client or if you need a day off.

Like, they’re just facts.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: And they didn’t have any ways.

Yeah. I think we. We put a lot of weight on other people’s thoughts and although I don’t know if it’s the same for you, but when I’m having these, like, doubtful thoughts and I’m feeling so stressed, sometimes they don’t feel like my voice.

And I can think like, oh, this has probably come from when someone said this thing to me and then I flashed onto it and, you know, I’m hearing someone else’s voice.

So I guess, like, I’m not qualified to give advice on any of this. But, like, I guess, yeah, it’s been helpful for me to think about, like, do I really feel this way or am I just kind of, like, parroting back to myself what other people have told me?

Bianca: Yeah. Or where does it come from?

Skye: Yeah. Because sometimes.

Bianca: Yeah, well, that’s another thing. Is it true? And sometimes it’s. It’s.

It’s not the actual thing that you’re worried about, but also potentially what you have made that mean. So, like, you know, for example, fear of rejection or.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: Being reprimanded. And this is where all my stuff comes from. You know, like, if I can’t get someone results, then they’re not gonna like me. And then they’re gonna.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: You know, and then they’re gonna fire me. And like. And it’ like all of that kind of stuff. And half of the time it’s just all in my head.

Skye: No. And I totally. I totally get that. And then everything’s fine. Like, I can’t tell you the amount of times like this happens to me, like, on a weekly basis that a client will email me and I will be like, I can’t open the email.

They’re going to say that they’re not working with me anymore. They’re not happy with this thing that I did. And I like, freak out for ages. And then I click on the email and I’m literally, like, looking between my fingers, covering my face, and then they’re just like, oh, good job.

I love it. And I’m like, why did I spend an hour freaking out about this?

Bianca: Is I do exactly that.

Skye: I’m actually so glad that other people do that. Like, I’m not glad, but you know what I mean?

Bianca: Yeah. No, other people do that because I’m in a group of ads managers in Slack and someone literally posted something along these lines, like a meme along these lines, like, yesterday.

And I was like, oh, my God. Like, you know when someone’s like, send you a message saying, hey, we need to talk, or like, can we have a call? And you’re like, Hyperventilating.

Because you’re, like, thinking the worst.

Skye: Yes. I actually, last night, I had to have a really. And this was genuinely. It was a really hard, awkward business conversation. You know, they happen sometimes. Yeah. And you know what?

Like, I got through it.

It happened. I had the hard business conversation. And you know what? My business is still fine. I’m still fine. The person I was talking to is fine. Like, yeah. Even when things.

Because I’m not going to sit here and be like, it’s all in your head and nothing bad will ever happen to you. Like, obviously that’s also not a fact. But, like, at the end of the day, like, you’re fine.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: Like, you know, I felt awkward, and now I’m talking to you and I’m having a good time. Like, you know, things move on. Yes. Like, things move on and you’re okay.

And the awkward conversation or the awkward email, like, I’m not going to remember it in six months. You know what I mean?

Bianca: Sometimes.

Skye: Oh. I mean, I have ocd. So actually, maybe that’s not true. Maybe I’m gonna, like, ruminate on it for a very long time. But in general, like, you’re not gonna remember that one sentence that, you know, a client or a staff member or whatever said to you that really upset you and made you doubt yourself.

Like, you just move on. And the fact of the matter is, someone once said to me that you don’t get to choose if you’re valuable to a client. Client gets to choose.

And I think there’s a bit of what we talked about before. Like, if you lie to them, then you are. Then maybe they’re making a bad choice. But if you are really open and honest about.

This is. These are my skills. This is what I’ve done for other clients. This is what I’m guaranteeing, you know, that I can do for you. I don’t really guarantee results clients.

I guarantee, like, asks.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: And you know what I mean. Like, I would never say to someone, like, you’re going to get. Get, you know, a billion dollars in sales, but I could say, I’m going to do this, this, and this.

And as long as I know that I can do what I promised them, they get to choose if I’m valuable to them or not. That’s not really my decision to make.

I just have to make sure I’m being truthful.

Bianca: I love that. I really do love that. I feel like we need to have that, like, as a quote.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: For this episode. Let’s wrap up.

Skye: I could go on about this for.

Bianca: A very long time. Same. Because I feel like we’re not talking about it enough. You know, that’s why half of times people struggle because they don’t have a little village that they can say these things to.

And they think that they’re the only ones feeling like that. Well, it’s out here now.

Skye: Yeah, we’re talking about it. We’ll be the ones.

Bianca: Yep, it’s out there now, people. We do feel like that too. And even like, you know, two decades in, like, still feeling like that.

Skye: Yeah.

Bianca: So let’s move on to my two last questions for the episode. And I know I, I, I literally took such a big breath and pause because I was like, oh, but there’s all these other things I want to talk about.

But no, yeah, no, that’s okay.

Skye: You can wrap up, send me a voice and I’m on Instagram and I’ll.

Bianca: Chat with you about it later.

Skye: Or if everyone loves this episode, I’ll come back and do a plug too.

Bianca: Oh, we can do that too. Yeah, totally. I always ask, what are you curious about right now?

Skye: Yeah, so I think at the moment I’m curious. I’m really curious about visual design. So, yeah, I get into these periods where I just hyper fixate on like one thing. And right now visual design is my thing because, you know, I am a copywriter and a communication specialist.

And when I was corporate, that was fine. So when I started the agency, I focused on hiring people that were really kind of more knowledgeable about visual design and had a lot of that experience because I don’t.

But now I’m feeling like as an agency owner, I want to become more of a generalist and more well run grounded, just kind of mostly so I can keep up with conversations.

Yeah, I don’t know all these fancy design words. So I’ve been doing a lot of learning, like staying up till like four in the morning, kind of learning about, you know, the visual elements of brand strategy and not so much about.

Yeah, like, it’s just a good addition because I know a lot about, you know, brand voice and brand tone strategy. I know a lot about that market research, that demographic strategy.

But the visual design is something that I, I want to be more well rounded.

Bianca: Yeah. And doesn’t mean you have to do it, but knowing, oh yeah, talking about is good.

Skye: No, but yeah, I just want to like to be able to keep up with other people in the room.

Bianca: That’s always a good, always a good thing to do. I like it. Well, I can’t wait to see what, you know, comes of that. So, yeah, if you had an extra $5,000 in your marketing budget, what would you spend it on?

Skye: This is such a good question.

Bianca: So you’re not allowed to say Facebook ad. That’s how you are.

Skye: You know what? Well, that actually is part of my answer, so I’m sorry to say that to you, but honestly, I think what I would do is experiment with a bunch of different ads and see which work best for Blue sky marketing specifically.

So, you know, at the moment, we’ve been connecting with most of our clients through, like, word of mouth and organic socials, and I’d be really interested to see, like, the value across different channels.

So I think I just split the money evenly between like, maybe meta ads, you know, even like something like podcast sponsorship, you know, newsletter sponsorship, search engine ads, and then I’d see which performed better.

So the next time I could make informed decisions about where Blue sky should be showing up if we ever did have, like, a specific campaign in mind.

Bianca: Love that. Test it all. Like it. I would just.

Skye: I love testing. I feel like people don’t test enough.

Bianca: Oh, true.

Skye: Because I can’t really make a strategy for what would be best for Blue Skies paid advertising, because I’ve never. We’ve never done paid advertising before, so, like, how would I know?

Bianca: And then. Well, you gotta have your goals in place first and, you know.

Skye: Yeah, it’s a whole.

Bianca: Yeah.

Skye: So I would just play around and have fun, to be honest.

Bianca: I like that. That’s good.

Awesome. Well, one thing is that sky will be in Tasmania in May next year speaking at the conference, the Tasmanian Women in Business Conference. I’m super excited about that to have you there.

Thank you.

Skye: I’m excited to be there. I’m. I’ve. I told you, I’ve literally already written it. It’s done. I could do it tomorrow and I’d be fine.

Bianca: Precastinator. Right? Instead of a procrastinator. I love it, so.

Skye: Oh, clearly I’m very excited because it’s already done.

Bianca: Oh, can you write mine?

Kidding.

I’m very excited too, because, yeah, the conference is going to be amazing. I actually haven’t mentioned it much on the podcast because I’ve kind of of kept Tasmanian things separate from, like, the podcast.

But you know what? It’s out here now. I’m super excited about it. Cool. Well, that is the end of this week’s show. If you have questions about copywriting, ethical business, and everything in between, head to blueskymarketing.com

I will also pop the show notes. The link in the show notes A really big thanks to you Sky. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was so good.

Skye: Thank you for having me. It was fun.

Bianca: You’re welcome.

And thanks to you for listening. If you like the show, don’t forget to subscribe and leave a five star rating and review on itunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you heard the podcast.

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